New ADS-B Sharing System

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ecuguru
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Re: New ADS-B Sharing System

Postby ecuguru » March 27th, 2011, 5:58 pm

Hi Roger,

If as part of the station list you're able to get users to provide a rough degree decimal representation of where they are located, I'd suggest putting that rough location into the lat/lon fields. So at sign up, they pick their city/state/country and you get a lat/lon back to store with their profile. It should be easy enough to perform this for existing users as well simply by looking at their data.

The trick from here is, what is the best way to indicate the values are approximate and not exact? To leverage their protocol, but also inject data into it that isn't to specification, could lead folks down the road to get confused.

My first suggestion is to use the useless (for this purpose) base station fields in the protocol to inject the word APPROX and put the lat/lon in the appropriate fields. For the average BS user, they'll see planes in the same place overtop of each other, but they'll at least see them.

I was also thinking that you could put an * after the latitude and longitude to indicate it's approximate. That could work too and minimizes your protocol deviation, but again is out of spec for base station and I'm not sure if the BS software would crash at that.

Last idea is to not cross the streams!! Didn't Ghostbusters 1 teach us anything? Have two different socket streams. One with the legit BS feed, and the other with non-position feed using either of the feeds above. It lets data geeks play with it, and doesn't freak anyone out when they're seeing aircraft not move on the BS map. However, this might be twice the hassle for everyone.

Either are easy enough to implement, it's just a matter of making sure the BS software won't die (or PP or whoever), and making sure people can recognize the data is slightly different than the normal ADSB traffic they're used to seeing..

Edit: Also, to answer your question, the station ID and approx lat lon of the station.

Fun talking about this!

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leeus
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Re: New ADS-B Sharing System

Postby leeus » March 28th, 2011, 6:59 am

Would you be happy if this was logged to a central database that you could query or ultimately are you after getting the data locally?

Roger and I have been talking about how to provide this data and yes the trouble is the station ID! I don't think we could play around with the lat/lon fields as clients expect a double/float value there and any text would throw it off!

I do like the idea very much of a different stream client side though so that if you want the data it is there but only if you want it! Again the "tagging" is an issue there.
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roger_tinembart
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Re: New ADS-B Sharing System

Postby roger_tinembart » March 28th, 2011, 9:13 am

As Lee already mentioned, I can't place non-numeric characters in this fields as they are defined as numeric/float. Sending characters in these fields would make the stream useless for most post-processing tools like PP, Virtual Radar Server and so on. On the other hand, if we would define an alternate stream we would be completely open regarding the format, but this has the downside that you won't find any software to display the data. So one possibility could be to "fake" the position messages of these position less messages, i.e. send MSG2 / MSG3 and a special altitude like 100000 feet or so. In the sharing client, the user could turn this option on or off. In the default setting (off) he is receiving the regular messages having a valid position (same behavior as now). Only if the user is turning this option on, he is also getting the position less messages with a faked position based on the position of the receiver(s). Because these faked position messages would look like real position messages, the data would get displayed / processed like other messages. But of course they would stay for a long time at the same 'position'. Just an idea...

With a solution like that, you would see also the position less messages at an estimated position based on the receiving station(s). You would not exactly know which station(s) was/were receiving the message, but i think this is not really important?

PS: Currently, the Basestation software is not able to import / display shared data. If you want to display the shared data, you have to use a third party app which understands the Port 30003 format.
Roger Tinembart

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Anmer
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Re: New ADS-B Sharing System

Postby Anmer » March 28th, 2011, 9:18 am

roger_tinembart wrote:PS: Currently, the Basestation software is not able to import / display shared data. If you want to display the shared data, you have to use a third party app which understands the Port 30003 format.


Not strictly correct:

http://radarspotters.eu/forum/index.php ... 443.0.html
Anmer
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roger_tinembart
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Re: New ADS-B Sharing System

Postby roger_tinembart » April 2nd, 2011, 7:37 am



Ok, I was imprecise. I should have written that there is no officially documented way to import / display shared data using the Basestation software. But as your mentioned example is showing, it is possible to do it. Agreed?
Roger Tinembart

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Anmer
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Re: New ADS-B Sharing System

Postby Anmer » April 2nd, 2011, 8:25 am

Agreed :)
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ecuguru
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Re: New ADS-B Sharing System

Postby ecuguru » April 12th, 2011, 7:05 am

Hi Roger,

Sorry it's been a while. I like the idea of two streams the best, or the optional parameter you suggested if the user really wants to go for the merge. To denote approximate location, before making an altitude a legitimate value but crazy high, I'm curious if the second or third fields, the SessionID / AircraftID, could be given some value (-1?) to indicate approx. If you're controlling an example datastream, easy enough to test.

I like the stationID specifically because it can help filter out bad data. Especially with the BS software needing a Home parameter to not representing ground transmissions from being in the wrong place, if you've got the stationID you can filter out bad info. I've seen other services try this as well with other feeds, and it's not unusual to see a single station contaminating a globe of data with bad settings, etc..

hope that helps!

coupe
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Re: New ADS-B Sharing System

Postby coupe » April 12th, 2011, 2:25 pm

roger_tinembart wrote:Ok, I was imprecise. I should have written that there is no officially documented way to import / display shared data using the Basestation software.


I used to think it would be a benefit to Kinetic to release the protocol, but now I don't think anyone really cares.

The thing I really hate about the whole thing, is that the company depends on reverse engineers to eek-out little bits of code.
The eekers being as proprietary as Kinetic, but only able to release code years after they announce it.

It's almost comedy, but I guess the hobby attracts that kind of people.

I think that now that the SBS-1 design has become obsolete, I am hopeful that a new kind of programmer class may emerge with the DL4MEA receiver.

I think any sharing system should not be based on a proprietary protocol.

roger_tinembart
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Re: New ADS-B Sharing System

Postby roger_tinembart » April 12th, 2011, 4:12 pm

coupe wrote:I think any sharing system should not be based on a proprietary protocol.

I completely agree with you. That’s the reason why this sharing system is based on the good documented port 30003-format of Basestation which is used by a lot of other applications to import and export data. Unfortunately, Basestation can only export in this format but is not able to import data in this format. As a consequence, my sharing system is able to receive and process the output of Basestation (and others like AirNav RadarBox), but you cannot "see" the shared data in Basestation. But there are a lot of third party applications (for free or for a few Euros) able to process the shared output, so this should be enough to say that this sharing system is based on an open protocol.

To be able to display the shared data in Basestation, I would have to modify the encrypted data stream between the receiver and Basestation. I don't know how Kinetic is thinking about this, but it could lead to legal problems if you reverse engineer something that is encrypted. So possibly, this is the reason why it's hard to get useful information concerning this point.

coupe wrote:I think that now that the SBS-1 design has become obsolete, I am hopeful that a new kind of programmer class may emerge with the DL4MEA receiver.

I will order one of these beasts too as soon as they are getting available. It's looking very promising!
Roger Tinembart

Stockholmradar
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Re: New ADS-B Sharing System

Postby Stockholmradar » October 20th, 2011, 6:11 am

Hi,

how many are you sharing the traffic?
I have traffic from the Stockholm area that I can give you.

stockholmradar.com


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